I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
"Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

"5 ugly" > wrote in message
:

> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.


Same for me.

Larry Goddard
Zero One USA

It would sure be great to see a link to the most recent list of
"approved" club class gliders. Just wondering if my ASW-20B fits into
the list before I sound off...

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

On Sep 21, 1:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

On Sep 21, 3:07*pm, Bruno > wrote:
> It would sure be great to see a link to the most recent list of
> "approved" club class gliders. *Just wondering if my ASW-20B fits into
> the list before I sound off...
>
> Thanks,
> Bruno - B4
>
> On Sep 21, 1:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bruno -

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/handicaps.pdf

even if you don't have a glider that qualifies for club class (I
certainly don't!) it just makes sense to me that our club class team
should fly club class gliders.

On Sep 21, 2:07*pm, Bruno > wrote:
> It would sure be great to see a link to the most recent list of
> "approved" club class gliders. *Just wondering if my ASW-20B fits into
> the list before I sound off...
>
> Thanks,
> Bruno - B4
>
> On Sep 21, 1:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Here's a list of the IGC Club Class in 2010 that is used, I think,
everywhere but the US:
http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/handicaps.pdf
The list of gliders currently eligible for Club Class US world team
points noted with a "C" is:
http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6242029070
So the answer, Bruno, is your glider qualifies on both lists.
Bob Faris

> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

I support this in general, but I have these suggestions:

1. Allow gliders that fall within the performance range of the Club
Class, exist in significant numbers in the country, and are not on the
IGC list (e.g. 1-35).

2. Use the actual IGC rules for tasking and scoring.

Every other country follows this convention (both 1 and 2, above).
Until USA does this, we will never get on the path of having a
competitive team. The Sports Class is wonderful, but it isn't the
Club Class.

The Club Class has the potential of becoming the first international
class to hold an international competition in USA.

On Sep 21, 6:55*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
> > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.
>
> I support this in general, but I have these suggestions:
>
> 1. *Allow gliders that fall within the performance range of the Club
> Class, exist in significant numbers in the country, and are not on the
> IGC list (e.g. 1-35).
>
> 2. *Use the actual IGC rules for tasking and scoring.
>
> Every other country follows this convention (both 1 and 2, above).
> Until USA does this, we will never get on the path of having a
> competitive team. *The Sports Class is wonderful, but it isn't the
> Club Class.
>
> The Club Class has the potential of becoming the first international
> class to hold an international competition in USA.

I support. I would not fly because I no longer own a Club Class glider.

On Sep 21, 4:47*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
> On Sep 21, 6:55*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.
>
> > I support this in general, but I have these suggestions:
>
> > 1. *Allow gliders that fall within the performance range of the Club
> > Class, exist in significant numbers in the country, and are not on the
> > IGC list (e.g. 1-35).
>
> > 2. *Use the actual IGC rules for tasking and scoring.
>
> > Every other country follows this convention (both 1 and 2, above).
> > Until USA does this, we will never get on the path of having a
> > competitive team. *The Sports Class is wonderful, but it isn't the
> > Club Class.
>
> > The Club Class has the potential of becoming the first international
> > class to hold an international competition in USA.
>
> I support. I would not fly because I no longer own a Club Class glider.

I agree with 5 ugly.

Sean Franke
2010 US Team - Club Class

On Sep 21, 2:33*pm, Bob Faris > wrote:
> On Sep 21, 2:07*pm, Bruno > wrote:
>
> > It would sure be great to see a link to the most recent list of
> > "approved" club class gliders. *Just wondering if my ASW-20B fits into
> > the list before I sound off...
>
> > Thanks,
> > Bruno - B4
>
> > On Sep 21, 1:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
>
> > > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Here's a list of the IGC Club Class in 2010 that is used, I think,
> everywhere but the US:http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/handicaps.pdf
> The list of gliders currently eligible for Club Class US world team
> points noted with a "C" is:http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6242029070
> So the answer, Bruno, is your glider qualifies on both lists.
> Bob Faris

Thanks for the links Bob. I am also in agreement.

Bruno - B4

On Sep 21, 3:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

If there is a Club Class National Contest, I'll buy Club Class Glider.
Richard

I support a Club Class Nationals in the US to provide the most
competetive international team and maintain reasonable entry level
costs to racing.

I also support lifting the ban on previous US Team members that
participated in an FAI class, again in hopes of fielding the most
competetive and dedicated team.

Michael Westbrook

"UN"

On Sep 21, 3:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

I agree with Sam.

Please note in the FAI list of Club Class gliders, the H301 Libelle is
no longer included. Looks like they dropped it about three years ago.


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

"Larry Goddard" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "5 ugly" > wrote in message
> :
>
>> I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
>> "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.
>
>
> Same for me.
>
> Larry Goddard
> Zero One USA


Me Too!
Also--do not restrict the pilots from US Team selection.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

With contest participation among all classes reduced, I wonder if club
class (in particular) would benefit from 2 or 3 regional contests each
year, with the winner from each region being elegible to compete on
the world level?

Tom Knauff

On Sep 22, 5:41*am, Junior Team 2007 >
wrote:
> I support a Club Class Nationals in the US to provide the most
> competetive international team and maintain reasonable entry level
> costs to racing.
>
> I also support lifting the ban on previous US Team members that
> participated in an FAI class, again in hopes of fielding the most
> competetive and dedicated team.
>
> Michael Westbrook
>
> "UN"

Great point Mike,

So long as they fly a Club Class glider to qualify, we should send the
best pilots we have.

KJC

>>
>> Same for me.
>>
>> Larry Goddard
>> Zero One USA
>

And me.

Why is everyone focused on the wrong end of this subject? Why are you
focused on a nationals/team selection discussion when the club class
is still practically only a concept in the US at this point? It's like
you want to have the super bowl without the regular season and
playoffs to determine who plays in it. You guys constantly dance
around the real issue....participation. You seem to acknowledge it
only because it limits your options for team selection. Fix the
participation problem first and the issue of where and how team
selection is done will be way easier to solve. Not to mention the
health of soaring competition in the US. There's got to be a ton of
potential contest talent out there who own club class ships. Find a
way to tap into it. As an example, look at the Memorial Day event that
Sky Soaring (Chicago) puts on for those who have never flown in a
contest. The SSA/contest concious folks should find ways to promote
such activities at all clubs. Reach out to the clubs and send a "how-
to guide" for informal club-level contests to get the ball rolling. It
has to start somewhere, and nationals/team selection ain't it.

On Sep 22, 12:25*pm, Westbender > wrote:
> Why is everyone focused on the wrong end of this subject? Why are you
> focused on a nationals/team selection discussion when the club class
> is still practically only a concept in the US at this point? It's like
> you want to have the super bowl without the regular season and
> playoffs to determine who plays in it. You guys constantly dance
> around the real issue....participation. You seem to acknowledge it
> only because it limits your options for team selection. Fix the
> participation problem first and the issue of where and how team
> selection is done will be way easier to solve. Not to mention the
> health of soaring competition in the US. There's got to be a ton of
> potential contest talent out there who own club class ships. Find a
> way to tap into it. As an example, look at the Memorial Day event that
> Sky Soaring (Chicago) puts on for those who have never flown in a
> contest. The SSA/contest concious folks should find ways to promote
> such activities at all clubs. Reach out to the clubs and send a "how-
> to guide" for informal club-level contests to get the ball rolling. It
> has to start somewhere, and nationals/team selection ain't it.

You make a GREAT point - Team selection isssues are not where to start
a re-invigoration of the contest world here in the US. But the team
selection issue highlights a glaring omission from the current US
contest options. The team selection issue would not be an issue if the
RC would take the decisive step and sanction a US Club Class National
Champion(ship). Then the USSTC would have a representative contest
from which to choose team members for the club class team.

Most importantly in this entire discussion, we/somebody definitely
needs to do a better job priming the pump of competitive glider
racing. There really does need to be a grass-roots effort to get the
club class spirit fired up and out into the open where the RC can see
it is a real, potential force towards building particpation within the
decaying, sanctioned, SSA contest system.

Just maybe, a properly "sold" Club Class competition series could turn
the tide on decreasing participation. Until they or somebody proves
the concept inthe real world, no one in this debate has anything other
than their own, biased in many cases, opinions to offer.

What we can't afford to do is do it in some sort of half-way manner,
from which detractors can say "well see, that did not work." A US Club
Class should be officially sanctioned, promoted and allowed to develop
over a number of years before we can write it off as a failed
experiement. If it fails to do what I think it has the potential to
do, then I will be wrong and gladly soldier on in Sports class until
my dying day or I win the lottery to get into a more modern glider.

In fact, there are already many club class gliders being flown in
informal contests and intra-club racing already happening around the
country. In fact, most SSA Regional Sports Class contests are majority
Club Class gliders, if I am not mistaken. If these pilots have already
stepped up and made a first commitment to race cgliders officiually, I
can not for the life of me see where the RC makes the leap in assuming
that these same pilot's of those club class gliders would NOT compete
at a US Club Class Nationals, all things being possible. The problem
is that many Club Class owners/racers do not see the next logical
progression with their nascent racing ambitions, IMHO. And that's
because there is none.

Sure it is nice to get together and go racing against like ships
around the home area, but there is no wide recognition of that. And in
the end, aren't all our ego's stroked by getting some official
recognition? Where can US club class pilots go to get the recognition
at the regional, national, and international level, like pretty much
every other racer can in the other classed here in the US and in Club
Class around the world? The RC's answer is Sports Class. But this is
an imperfect world of racing for club class ships as TT and others
have rightly pointed out.

So, a good first step would be to offcially sanction a US Club Class
National Champion as scored within the US Sports Class Nationals. Do
that I wonder what the effect on particpation #'s by pilots flying
club class gliders will be.THey don't really know and I don't know.
But what if?

There was available space at this past year's Sports Nationals, if I
am correct. Maybe competing for a Club Class National Championship
would have filled the contest up, and maybe fiilled it up with better
pilots. Surely that would be a good thing from the persective of the
organizers of the contest AND the RC who would have taken a decisive
step and seen increased particpation (maybe.) You cannot wite off an
experiment that never really happened in the first place.

EY

On Sep 22, 10:21*am, Tom > wrote:
> With contest participation among all classes reduced, I wonder if club
> class (in particular) would benefit from 2 or 3 regional contests each
> year, with the winner from each region being elegible to compete on
> the world level?
>
> Tom Knauff

That is definitely an idea to think about. EY

I also support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list
of "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

A note - The US National Sports Class Contest is a misnomer, it is a
National handicapped Contest and IMHO is a far cry from what the
original concept was. I have been participating in Sports Class
contests since 1979 (doing photos) to flying almost every year since
1981 in a Sports Class contest.

Mike Green MG

On Sep 22, 7:41*am, Junior Team 2007 >
wrote:
> I support a Club Class Nationals in the US to provide the most
> competetive international team and maintain reasonable entry level
> costs to racing.
>
> I also support lifting the ban on previous US Team members that
> participated in an FAI class, again in hopes of fielding the most
> competetive and dedicated team.
>
> Michael Westbrook
>
> "UN"

Well said Mike.

Just in case I did not say this in any of my other voluminous
postings, I ,too, fully support ending the ban on former US Team
members in the FAI classes from being slected for the Club Class Team.
We should send the best pilots, flying club class ships that we can to
every World Championships- Period!

The fact is I would love the opportunity to race Karl Streideck in a
Discus, or Ray Gimmey in a Std Cirrus, or just about any of the other
top pilots in the handicapped, club class. But I can not do this right
now on a level playing field - excpet through the club class concept.

Tim EY

>
> I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> contest held in the Western US.
>

This is a serious concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!


John Cochrane

> getting more people to show up at contests, any contests!


How can the key to increasing participation be anything other than
this? The big question is "how". To understand the "how" you need to
know "why" folks are not already participating.

Has anyone considered a poll of some kind (letter? email?) to all SSA
members regarding their interest in contest flying? Ask them what's
keeping them from competing. Travel? Expense? Intimidation? Ask them
what type of event would get them to try an organized event. Regional
contest? Local club contest? Exhibition/training contest? Non-scored
fun fly?

If you look at the OLC, there's obviously a lot of pilots with some
semblance of a competitive spirit. Right now there are 1,153 pilots in
North America (923 in the US) with flights logged. Is there no way to
reach out and tap that? If you can interest even a few percent of
them, that's a nice increase in participation.

I'm one of those pilots. I'm a relative newb with two seasons of xc
under my belt. When I think about joining a regional contest, I can
tell you the intimidation factor is quite high. There's a level of
complexity with rules/procedures/traffic/etc that is magnitudes higher
than a typical xc flight from the home airport. It's a big step for
someone who hasn't flown a contest. Especially for those of us in
small clubs. I think maybe you experienced contest guys may have
forgotten what it's like to be in these shoes. Find a way to break
down some of these barriers with a more gradual "stepping-stone"
approach and I think you'll see some new blood.

As Tim said, growing participation (and the club class) has to be
looked at as a longer-term effort. You can't write it off after only a
half-hearted attempt.

On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> > I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> > contest held in the Western US.
>
> This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
> class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
> people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
> silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
> have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
> sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
> in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
> to see more regions try this and see if it works.
>
> If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
> contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
> the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
> bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
> now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
> really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
> US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.
>
> Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
> Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
> PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
> how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
> people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.

In article
>,
rlovinggood > wrote:

> On Sep 21, 3:19*pm, 5 ugly > wrote:
> > I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
> > "Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.
>
> I agree with Sam.
>
> Please note in the FAI list of Club Class gliders, the H301 Libelle is
> no longer included. Looks like they dropped it about three years ago.
>
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Hmm, That .pdf of the 2010 handicaps in the FAI sporting code appendices
looks suspiciously incomplete. Looks like a partial listing of the club
class. Maybe there were further pages that got left off the .pdf that is
posted. I can't imagine that the 301 would be left off while other, much
better performing 15m ships like the ASW-20 are included. Of course,
there were only about 120 or so 301's built and most of them came to the
U.S.

On Sep 22, 5:19*pm, Westbender > wrote:
> > getting more people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> How can the key to increasing participation be anything other than
> this? The big question is "how". To understand the "how" you need to
> know "why" folks are not already participating.
>
> Has anyone considered a poll of some kind (letter? email?) to all SSA
> members regarding their interest in contest flying? Ask them what's
> keeping them from competing. Travel? Expense? Intimidation? Ask them
> what type of event would get them to try an organized event. Regional
> contest? Local club contest? Exhibition/training contest? Non-scored
> fun fly?
>
> If you look at the OLC, there's obviously a lot of pilots with some
> semblance of a competitive spirit. Right now there are 1,153 pilots in
> North America (923 in the US) with flights logged. Is there no way to
> reach out and tap that? If you can interest even a few percent of
> them, that's a nice increase in participation.
>
> I'm one of those pilots. I'm a relative newb with two seasons of xc
> under my belt. When I think about joining a regional contest, I can
> tell you the intimidation factor is quite high. There's a level of
> complexity with rules/procedures/traffic/etc that is magnitudes higher
> than a typical xc flight from the home airport. It's a big step for
> someone who hasn't flown a contest. Especially for those of us in
> small clubs. I think maybe you experienced contest guys may have
> forgotten what it's like to be in these shoes. Find a way to break
> down some of these barriers with a more gradual "stepping-stone"
> approach and I think you'll see some new blood.
>
> As Tim said, growing participation (and the club class) has to be
> looked at as a longer-term effort. You can't write it off after only a
> half-hearted attempt.

How about a "rookie school" at your local regional? Would that help
get your feet wet?
It really is not that hard to get started. I've been teaching racing
beginner classes in Region 2, 3 and once in 5 for almost 20 years. One
of my rookies this year won a day(in a Club class glider) How cool is
that.?
Contact whoever is running your local regional and see if they would
provide. I bet they can find someone to mentor you.
Good Luck
UH

On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> > > contest held in the Western US.
>
> > This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
> > class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
> > people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
> > silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
> > have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
> > sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
> > in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
> > to see more regions try this and see if it works.
>
> > If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
> > contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
> > the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
> > bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
> > now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
> > really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
> > US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.
>
> > Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
> > Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
> > PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
> > how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
> > people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> > John Cochran
>
> John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
> had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
> like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
> in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
> hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
was even finished???

It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...

Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
and better than even standard class lately.

And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
of high enough caliber?

Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
guys could do pretty well at a WGC.

Tim EY

On Sep 22, 6:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> > > contest held in the Western US.
>
> > This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
> > class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
> > people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
> > silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
> > have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
> > sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
> > in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
> > to see more regions try this and see if it works.
>
> > If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
> > contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
> > the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
> > bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
> > now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
> > really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
> > US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.
>
> > Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
> > Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
> > PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
> > how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
> > people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> > John Cochran
>
> John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
> had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
> like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
> in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
> hear good things to hope for a bright future.

Andrzej, it's too bad you felt that way at that meeting. What I
heard
was an interest in the class from the rules committee, and a
willingness
to allow the experiment to continue. Club class as the path to the
WGC
was always going to be a long term issue, and only will happen with
good participation at a number of contests.

The turnout at 2009 Cordele was great, and included people that had
come a long way to participate. This year's contests have had lighter
turnout
all around (the total club plus sports at R5S was less than 17). Even
R4S
currently going on has far less thnt maximum turnout, so that says
to me that people just aren't flying contests this year. Personally,
I didn't fly one because of unfamiliarity with my new plane, but I'll
fly next year.

Where do we go from here? I'm sure if someone was willing and
able to run a national contest in club class (perhaps in tandem
with another low attendance class like World, Open, or even
Standard) the RC would grant a waiver for it. You wouldn't earn
a WGC slot (yet), but you could earn 100 rating points for winning
(which the 1-26 winner does). Good participation would show the
viability of the class.

-- Matt

-- Matt

On Sep 22, 10:59*pm, Tim > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane >
> > wrote:
>
> > > > I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> > > > contest held in the Western US.
>
> > > This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
> > > class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
> > > people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
> > > silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
> > > have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
> > > sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
> > > in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
> > > to see more regions try this and see if it works.
>
> > > If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
> > > contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
> > > the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
> > > bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
> > > now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
> > > really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
> > > US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.
>
> > > Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
> > > Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
> > > PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
> > > how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
> > > people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> > > John Cochran
>
> > John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
> > had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
> > like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
> > in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
> > hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
> contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
> was even finished???
>
> It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...
>
> Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
> Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
> add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
> add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
> discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
> potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
> Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
> and better than even standard class lately.
>
> And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
> of high enough caliber?
>
> Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
> Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
> guys could do pretty well at a WGC.
>
> Tim EY

Tim, I don't think it would be beneficial to the discussion to recount
negatives we heard in Cordele and what was said by "the powers" on
r.a.s shortly after that.

Recently, here on r.a.s, I heard a lot of good words from John C. He
essentially stated that Club Class Nationals can be organized even
next year if someone steps up to it.
I think this would be a great opportunity. Maybe as a part of Sprots
Class Nationals maybe separately.

I sold my SZD-55-1 since I did not believe a change was coming and I
bought an ASG-29 because I could afford it. I still support the Club
Class even though it seems it could be counter productive for me.
Well, principals, conviction are more important than anything else. I
may even borrow a glider to fly in a Club Class contest.

I think someone should take the offer John made here on r.a.s and
organize Club Class Nationals next year.

Let's move beyond arguing...

On Sep 22, 10:59*pm, Tim > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane >
> > wrote:
>
> > > > I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
> > > > contest held in the Western US.
>
> > > This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
> > > class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
> > > people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
> > > silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
> > > have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
> > > sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
> > > in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
> > > to see more regions try this and see if it works.
>
> > > If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
> > > contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
> > > the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
> > > bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
> > > now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
> > > really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
> > > US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.
>
> > > Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
> > > Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
> > > PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
> > > how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
> > > people to show up at contests, any contests!
>
> > > John Cochran
>
> > John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
> > had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
> > like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
> > in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
> > hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
> contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
> was even finished???
>
> It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...
>
> Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
> Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
> add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
> add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
> discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
> potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
> Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
> and better than even standard class lately.
>
> And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
> of high enough caliber?
>
> Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
> Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
> guys could do pretty well at a WGC.
>
> Tim EY

Tim, I don't think it would be beneficial to the discussion to
recount
negatives we heard in Cordele and what was said by "the powers" on
r.a.s shortly after that.
Recently, here on r.a.s, I heard a lot of good words from John C. He
essentially stated that Club Class Nationals can be organized even
next year if someone steps up to it.
I think this would be a great opportunity. Maybe as a part of Sprots
Class Nationals maybe separately.
I sold my SZD-55-1 since I did not believe a change was coming. I
still support the Club
Class even though it seems it could be counter productive for me
considering the glider I own now.
Well, principals, conviction are more important than anything else. I
may even borrow a glider to fly in a Club Class contest.
I think someone should take the offer John made here on r.a.s and
organize Club Class Nationals next year.
Let's move beyond arguing...

On Sep 22, 1:25Â*pm, Westbender > wrote:
> Why is everyone focused on the wrong end of this subject? Why are you
> focused on a nationals/team selection discussion when the club class
> is still practically only a concept in the US at this point? It's like
> you want to have the super bowl without the regular season and
> playoffs to determine who plays in it.


Not to negate the necessity to grow participation in national contests
but this is what is stated in 1.1 of the Sports Class Nationals rules:


1.1 â€* The purpose of a National Sport Class Soaring Championship is to
determine a National Sport Class Champion and to measure the
performance of all entrants. Performance in Nationals will be used to
provide a basis for pilots to qualify for entry into future soaring
Championships and to select pilots for the U.S. Team in International
Club Class Competition.


Bringing in new pilots should start at the regional, not national
level where the main purpose is to determine the annual Champion and
US Team selection.

On Sep 23, 1:56Â*pm, Junior Team 2007 >
wrote:
> On Sep 22, 1:25Â*pm, Westbender > wrote:
>
> > Why is everyone focused on the wrong end of this subject? Why are you
> > focused on a nationals/team selection discussion when the club class
> > is still practically only a concept in the US at this point? It's like
> > you want to have the super bowl without the regular season and
> > playoffs to determine who plays in it.
>
> Not to negate the necessity to grow participation in national contests
> but this is what is stated in 1.1 of the Sports Class Nationals rules:
>
> 1.1 â€* The purpose of a National Sport Class Soaring Championship is to
> determine a National Sport Class Champion and to measure the
> performance of all entrants. Performance in Nationals will be used to
> provide a basis for pilots to qualify for entry into future soaring
> Championships and to select pilots for the U.S. Team in International
> Club Class Competition.
>
> Bringing in new pilots should start at the regional, not national
> level where the main purpose is to determine the annual Champion and
> US Team selection.

Yes, but...

a national contest has a higher ranking factor. Pilots that do well
are better
able to get into other contests. National contests fly more days
(hopefully).
And, we've already had a couple of regional level club class
contests. We're
hoping for additional interest in the class (and contests in general)
by
holding more contests.

-- Matt

On Sep 22, 12:06*pm, Tim > wrote:

> postings, I ,too, fully support ending the ban on former US Team
> members in the FAI classes from being slected for the Club Class Team.
> We should send the best pilots, flying club class ships that we can to
> every World Championships- Period!

Just a point of contention here:

There is no "right" or "wrong" answer on this subject. Its a matter
of attitude, philosophy, and emphasis.

If you keep the ban in place, you are emphasizing participation - you
are in favor of more people getting a chance to compete in the World
Championship event, and all that goes with it. Winning is secondary
to giving many people an opportunity to fly in that grand venue.

If you want to lift the ban, you are emphasizing winning over
participation. You want to see the USA ranked #1, other
considerations are secondary.

Again: This isn't a good vs. bad thing, you just have to decide what
your priorities are.

--Noel

On Sep 22, 7:07*pm, wrote:
>
> How about a "rookie school" at your local regional? Would that help
> get your feet wet?

We started doing that in Ephrata, WA a couple of years ago. The "Dust-
up" is a 3-day contest specifically designed to introduce pilots to
tasking and the flow of competition days. We're still tweaking and
tuning the event, but we've had decent attendance the first two years
(although this year we only really got 1 flying day in - always a
danger with a 3-day event).

As "low-stress" as we try to make the Club/Sports class competition at
the Regional level, a lot of people are still intimidated by the
competition-aspect and the rules. Providing an unofficial event where
people can give it a try has helped lower some barriers...

--Noel

> As "low-stress" as we try to make the Club/Sports class competition at
> the Regional level, a lot of people are still intimidated by the
> competition-aspect and the rules. *Providing an unofficial event where
> people can give it a try has helped lower some barriers...


Well said.

Is there any way for the SSA and associated racing committee to try
and reach out with some nudging, encouragement and guidelines via
mailings? My club is small and has absolutely no experience putting on
such an event. Although there are a few individuals who would really
like to try it.

Does anyone know of some published instructions/guidelines for
organizing an informal, club-level contest that would be a reasonble
stepping-stone approach to preparing for other sanctioned events?
Noel, did your club document anything regarding the event you put on?

On Sep 23, 12:13*pm, Westbender > wrote:
> > As "low-stress" as we try to make the Club/Sports class competition at
> > the Regional level, a lot of people are still intimidated by the
> > competition-aspect and the rules. *Providing an unofficial event where
> > people can give it a try has helped lower some barriers...
>
> Well said.
>
> Is there any way for the SSA and associated racing committee to try
> and reach out with some nudging, encouragement and guidelines via
> mailings? My club is small and has absolutely no experience putting on
> such an event. Although there are a few individuals who would really
> like to try it.
>
> Does anyone know of some published instructions/guidelines for
> organizing an informal, club-level contest that would be a reasonble
> stepping-stone approach to preparing for other sanctioned events?
> Noel, did your club document anything regarding the event you put on?

I am in the same club as Noel. Besides the Dust-up competition our
club also has encampments to "remote" airstrips where we do mountain
flying. These encampments typically have way more member attendance
than the Dust-up "informal" competition, where a majority of the
competing pilots are not club members.

Brad

Contests participation have dwindled down for many reasons. One of
which is the costs for a competitive glider are ridiculous! To put
your name at the top of the score sheet will cost you a fortune.
Sorry, but winning gliders that cost 160,000 dollars doesn't make this
sport attractive. I love the idea of sports class and club class
because it keeps the playing field level. The scores typically
indicate who is the better pilot and not who has the most
technologically advanced glider.

The world class is a fabulous idea. Btw the pw-5 is a retarded looking
ship (IMHO) that should have never been used. A 13.5 m span,
conventional tail, fixed gear, isn't exactly what most guys desire to
fly. Our club has one and I always blow past it in my 1971 standard
cirrus. The world class needs a 15 m spanned, t tail, retractable
gear, roomy cockpit, and much more like an asw 19 or 20 for around
25000 to 30000 to be successful. I believe an asw 15, standard cirrus
or libel will give you more bang gor the buck than a pw5 will. So why
buy a pw5?

Let me rephrase that; I believe a STD cirrus, asw-15 or libelle will
give you more bang for HALF THE PRICE!!! so why buy one???